• I don’t see how same sex marriage really hurts anyone else. Really, what’s the harm?
• If Proposition 8 fails, there are a whole bunch of consequences. Did you know that churches that rent out their facilities for marriages could be forced to allow same sex marriage ceremonies on their properties?
• And because the California Supreme Court has made same sex marriage a fundamental right, legal defenses based on religious freedoms are less likely to succeed.
• If Proposition 8 fails, religious adoption agencies may be forced to place children in same sex marriages or discontinue providing adoption services altogether. That’s what happened with Catholic charities in Massachusetts after its courts imposed same sex marriages.
• Based on past experience, those who oppose same sex marriage on religious grounds will be increasingly labeled as intolerant, and subjected to legal penalties or social ridicule; it’s already happening in the debate over Prop 8. Some who support traditional marriage are having their careers threatened. This won’t be limited to California as its powerful influence is felt across the country.
• Did you know that nearly all public schools in California provide education about health and sexuality? If Prop 8 fails, children will be taught that marriage is between Party A and Party B, regardless of gender.
• Children will be taught that same sex marriages are the equal of traditional marriages. There will be serious clashes between the public schools and parents who desire to teach their children their own values and beliefs.
• If Proposition 8 fails, it will affect everyone. For example, the change of the legal definition of marriage could narrow personal liberties. Some have already been lost—like photographers who prefer not to photograph gay weddings and doctors who prefer not to perform artificial insemination of gays, even when there are other willing doctors.
• It’s been said, “the right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.” You see, although the argument of redefining marriage is couched in happiness or equal rights, it’s really about gaining control, forcing all of us to give up the very foundation of speech and religious freedoms on which this country was founded.
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Good synopsis. I am glad word is getting out to Utah. I think a lot of people don't know these things.
I didn't know these things until late last night. But thanks to 4-Slyce and the internet, I will never be caught so unawares again. I hope.
Here is a link form a BYU law professor and active church member, Morris Thurston, who discredits these specualtions about "reverse discrimination." http://www.clpearson.com/thurston.htm . You may have already seen it from grandma Atkin on the family site.I think some religious organizations who rely on state or federal funding may have some issues, but for example LDS Family Services is privately funded and will not be forced to place kids with a homosexual couple. The parents get to pick who adopts their child.
I'm glad to get some more information on the details and legal statutes behind the cited cases. So I appreciate your link, Luke.
Some of the concerns stated, I think, come down much more to social norms and worldviews than actual legal precedents. But because Proposition 8 is a legal issue, some may feel they need legal precedents to support their opinion, even when there isn’t one that precisely fits. Such a tactic ultimately won’t work. I hope that whatever arguments are to be made solely on moral values and beliefs can be stated as such without grasping for legal backing where it doesn’t exist.
I don’t think the majority of the worry comes down to how the LDS Church is/will be run. I have no worry in that regard. But we know that our responsibility transcends just our members. So, where he talks about BYU and LDS Family Services being safe from legal disruption—while it is good to know—I don’t think that is the major concern. At least it’s not mine.
I will openly admit that some of the tone and rhetoric in the video spots made me slightly uncomfortable—being the sort of tone I see people take in political debates. The effect is something akin to taking phrases like “may happen” and stating them in a way that makes them sound like “will happen,” even though it’s not necessarily the case. Which I think is what Mr. Thurston was talking about when he said that some of the statements are intended to engender fear. There’s really no need for that. The tone and rhetoric is easily recognized as not the same type of language that I hear coming from, say, an apostle of the Lord. In fact, when Elder Bednar speaks in one clip on the site he definitely speaks in a different manner than the volunteers, or even the youth asking him the questions.
I would not be surprised if they (some volunteers in the Prop 8 campaign) went a little far. I still see the logic in many of the arguments, though I could never condone fabrication or misrepresentation to make a point.
I can see people's worries as far as the social norms as well. I know many people don't want homosexuality "imposed" on them or society. I feel that I can teach Cole what Ashlie and I spiritually and morally believe on many issues and not have to have society as a whole agree with us. I think Members of a society should all be treated equally and not at the expense of other members. I don't think we have to believe that homsexuality is ok, just like we don't have to think that drinking,abortion, and sex before marriage are ok.But my feelings about how a society should act and treat these issues is all about free agency. I don't think my values should be forced on other people and I don't think their's should be forced on me. My ideal society would treat all people equally. I don't need to have homsexuals be unable to marry in order for me to beleive otherwise. I don't know if that makes sense. I just feel that way and can't help it, but I completely understand the other point of view.
Ultimately each person will need to check their beliefs. Many who may enjoy the societies that tolerant, Christian-like people engender are not comfortable sharing or espousing the current doctrines that got them there. While intolerance or contention is not acceptable, the need to feel intellectual and progressive within ones peer group is a temptation that often leads one to apologize for his/her beliefs and to become apathetic to causes that might whittle away at the moral fabric of society.
Dad, It's not about feeling intellectual or progressive for me. It's about truly feeling that these are for the most part good people and I don't think they are going to whittle away at our society's moral fiber. It's our moral fiber and not society's as a whole because they are part of our society whether we like it or not.
This amendment is about legislation (to be put into law) about same civil sex marriage rights, yes. But the broader issue seems always to come down to The Church's rights to get involved socially to preserve moral values. Issues such as gambling, abortion, and drug legalization have all been publically denounced by The Church while people have not been. Of course, these issues are perceived differently than the continuing debate on gayness... So, some choose to support The Church while others pick and choose what they will support, while still others hold The Church responsible for all kinds of demonic activities. Back to checking our own beliefs...."All that is necessary for the Triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
although my last name is not dalton, i'd like to inject a "nice post" to mister sir mister
even though i would agree with luke that i would like everyone to have equal rights because i know many gays and know they are really good people and should have the same rights-- if the prophet is asking for us to support prop 8 then i say i go with him and god on this one.
Just so everyone is clear I'm not trying to say the Prophet and the church are wrong about anything. I just think those "Consequences" are misleading and can lead to more hatred of gay people.
I hear the milkman. People can't help getting confrontational and excessive about causes and political points of view.
I think this is a fitting place to link to the thoughts of a friend that have place in this conversation, if anyone is still following this comment trail.
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